Ender's Game Final Discussion

We've come to the end of Ender's Game (that is, if you've stuck with me despite the lack of posting discussions, etc), and in this final discussion, anything goes.

One of the things I wanted to discuss was the relationship between Ender and Peter. All throughout the novel, Ender is so afraid of becoming like Peter. And, ironically, Ender is the catalyst for the destruction of an entire race, whereas Peter brings peace to the human race. Do you think Ender becomes what he most fears throughout the novel? Angela brought up the theme of life and death in the last discussion, so we can expand on that here as we discuss the death of the Buggers.

A friend of mine intensely disliked this novel because it involved young children who were controlled, manipulated, and at times abused. I've thought a lot about these things, and it's true that they are disturbing elements in the book. Yet, without them, the book would not be as intense or as captivating as it is. It's because the hope for mankind is found in young children that makes the story so compelling. That the odds are often pitted against them ups the ante even more. But, there are valid points about when is it too far. Is it okay to break a person to save everyone else? What they did to Ender - was that okay? What are your thoughts on the methods used to train Ender, including tricking him into destroying the Buggers? Does the end ever justify the means?

Finally, was what humanity did okay? Was it okay to wipe the Buggers out. Of course, hind sight is 20/20, but did any of you ever question the morality of the decision to strike back when you were reading this novel for the first time? What are your thoughts about the Giant's Drink on the Bugger world and Ender finding the cocoon queen?

If you have any other topics that you wanted to discuss, feel free to add them in the comments section. I've enjoyed reading this book with you and look forward to reading Ender's Shadow next. Angela will be leading that discussion and posting a reading schedule/introduction/something about it in a few days. Thanks, again, for putting up with me. I would never have volunteered to lead the discussion if I had known I would have had such health problems. So, thank you for your patience!

Ender's Game Discussion #4

Hey Everyone!

I am so sorry to be out of action for so many weeks. I've been pretty sick for the past month, but I'm starting to feel better and get back to life.

Because of the length of time since we first started this book, let's go ahead and hold our final discussion for this novel this weekend. I'll put up a final discussion post on Friday and we can wrap up Ender's Game and start up Ender's Shadow.

Thanks for your patience ~

Kate

Ender's Game Discussion #2

The last two sentences of our first reading are: "Ender's isolation was over. The war was just beginning."

We didn't talk very much about Ender's initiation into the battle school, so let's go ahead and open that up to what your impressions were, what you thought about Graff's actions to isolate Ender and how Ender was able to overcome that isolation to start to make friends. This situation of Ender pitted against other peers is not something new - our first example was the situation with Stilson, another was Peter. Initially, it was the monitor that was the seeming cause of Ender's isolation and conflict with the other children around him, but even without the monitor, he's thrown into situations that test his fortitude.

Speaking of the war just beginning, we're also starting to meet the armies that make up the battle school. There is Salamander Army led by Bonzo Madrid and Rat Army led by Rose the Nose. Ender is able to observe the strengths and weaknesses of these armies and their commanders. Meanwhile, Ender's formed his own practice group wherein he not only works on his skills and technique for battle, but also his skills to lead. We see that Ender is able to think outside the accepted way to play the game, and is implementing his own strategies and unique approach to not only improve himself, but also change the game in a very dynamic way.

Ender's also troubled, and while he may be an incredible soldier and leader-in-training, he has some demons he has to face inside of himself. The Giant's Drink is one such example. What do you think about this game, and what do you think the teachers were trying to see from the students who play the game? When Ender kills the giant, he thinks how Peter would be proud of him. During the conversation between Valentine and Graff, we see more contrast between Peter and Ender and Ender's fear that he could ever be like Peter. Why do you think Ender fears so much to be like Peter?

Which brings me to Valentine and Peter. In the chapter "Locke and Demosthenes" we get to know Ender's siblings a little better. What do you think about Peter's goal to rule the world? It seems that he really desires to do good for the world, but how does that reconcile with his tendencies towards cruelty? It was commented in the discussion under the previous post that Valentine and Peter are somewhat one-dimensional, and while after this chapter I still feel that Valentine is a rather weak character, I find Peter fascinating. He has a dichotomy about him that makes me curious about what he really plans to do and how he's going to go about it. What do you think his motivation is? Do you believe he is the monster Valentine seems to think he is?

Finally, we've got the war with the buggers that Ender is at the battle school preparing for, and meanwhile, Peter and Valentine are preparing for a potential conflict on earth. Once again, I find the technology in this book ahead of its time with the use of the nets (which bears such strong resemblance to our internet) and the importance of written expression, which today we find in blogs (and tweets and status updates and whatever have you), and also like Valentine and Peter, we can hide our true identities online.

A lot was covered in these chapters, so if there is anything else that I haven't already pulled out to discuss, feel free to do so in your comments.

For next weekend, read through chapter 13, Valentine. I am having surgery on Friday morning to remove that mass in my chest. My surgeon hopes to accomplish the surgery using a minimally invasive technique, but even if that is successful, it's still major surgery and I don't know what to expect for recovery. Plan on me leading the discussion, but if I am unable to, I will let Angela know and she has agreed already to take over if I need her to. Happy reading!

Ender's Game Discussion #1

In these first few chapters, we're introduced into the world of Ender's Game. The book was published in 1985 (an even earlier rendition of the story was released in 1977), yet over 20 years later, the book does not have a dated feel, which I think science fiction can be prone to at times. It's interesting to see how Orson Scott Card's technology in the novel is so similar to our modern day technology, so maybe one day the book will feel dated, but somehow I don't think it will.

Another similarity to our modern day society is in regard to the social problems. In Ender's world, it appears there is a strict method of population control, which we are introduced to in the very first chapter, "Third." I thought Graff's explanation of Ender's parents' predicament discussed on pages 22-24 in my edition was insightful. His parents want to conform to society, yet they have internal beliefs that simultaneously rebel against complying. We've seen examples today in which strict population control has brought about serious problems. Just this week I was listening to a discussion on NPR about one particular repercussion that China faces as a result (article can be read here) of population control. How would you feel if you lived in such a society that tried to control these very personal kinds of decisions?

In these first few chapters, we're introduced to some important characters that have shaped Ender's life up to this point, particularly Peter and Valentine. We learn that each of these children has been "tested" for suitability in the IF program, but both Peter and Valentine failed for opposing reasons, and that it was hoped that Ender would be the perfect balance between them. What are your initial thoughts about each of these siblings thus far in the novel (I know most, if not everyone here, has read this book before, but try to forget what you know that happens later and focus solely on what we know this far into the story)? What do you think about what Peter says to Ender (on page 15 in my version) when he says, "Ender, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I know how it feels, I'm sorry, I'm your brother, I love you." Who is the real Peter? Does he truly love Ender, or does he hate him, or is it both?

Finally, we're introduced to the Battle School. We'll talk more about the school in our next discussion, but for now, we can talk about our first impressions. I think having a nearly six-year-old myself, I was struck with how young these kids really are, yet how old their minds are in a lot of ways. They've been forced to grow up too soon. Is it because they live in a world that could be destroyed by aliens at any moment, or is it because they are bred to be geniuses? Or is it something else? What do you think?

For our next reading, read through Chapter 9, "Locke and Demosthenes." Discussion will open up next Saturday for these next chapters.

Ender's Game Introduction

The next two books for our book discussions are going to be Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow. We'll be doing a comparison study. In order for Angela and me to best prepare for these discussions, I think it would be helpful if you could note in the comment section below if you've read one or both of these books before.

So, first up in the reading is Ender's Game. I can still remember reading this book for the first time. I found myself so immersed in the book that I had a hard time putting it down. The first in a series of several books by Orson Scott Card, it's certainly one to catch your attention. I know people who love this book and people who do not like it at all. I'll be curious to see the response within our little book group here.

For our first reading, read through Chapter 5, "Games", which is to page 57 in my book. We'll open the discussion the weekend of January 22nd.

Seven Daughters and Seven Sons Finale - Part 3 Discussion

So. What do you think? How did you like this book?

I really enjoy this section. In addition to her return home and reunion with Mahmud, it's neat at the beginning to get Buran's perspective on some of the events from Part 2, especially insight on Amin and his attitude towards her.

Rather interesting what happened to her cousins, isn't it? Hassan's situation was especially sad. What do you think of her revenge on all of them, and the unforeseen advantage it would give her later? At one point after arriving home, she laments,

"I wept of the lonely years that stretched in front of me like an empty track through the desert. Of what use was it to be rich as the caliph is there was to be no one in the world that loved me best, no one in the world whom I loved best? The revenge I'd achieved on Hassan was as empty as death. I'd have given it over in a instant for five minutes with Mahmud. What good is revenge when you're alone at night?" (p. 196 of my book)

Any thoughts on this? Have any of you ever sought revenge and achieved it? Would you be willing to share how you felt?

Did anyone look into where Orontes is located? I checked it out and it is a river in Syria. But I don't really understand why someone would say they were from a river. Also, she's shocked at how far away the man from Orontes had come just to court her, but from what I could tell on a map, she'd had other suitors that were from places not much farther away: Aleppo, Damascus... Just a random thought there.

Well, I hope you enjoyed this book! Thanks for reading it with me!

Seven Daughters and Seven Sons - Part 2 Discussion

Okay, everyone, with your hand on your heart and a romantically-touched look on your face, take a deep breath and sigh with me, "Awwwhhh." That pretty much describes what I did when I finished Part 2. Were you able to keep from starting Part 3? Confession: even though I've read this book multiple times, I gave in and finished in. I know! I'm a horrid example.

This section touches on a couple topics that I thought were interesting:

-Friendship and what attributes true friends possess (or what attributes fake friends have) - I find it interesting that from the very beginning of Mahmud's account, he basically says that Amin and Uthman are not true friends. What is it about his friendship with Nasir that gives them a strong relationship? How are our friendships? What do you think of Uthman's attempt at being a true friend at the end?

-The relationship between men and women - Of course, we all recoiled at the men's narrow-minded attitudes towards women. I personally believe these attitudes are still pervasive in our society, but much more disguised. Can you think of any ways it's hidden? I love how Nasir defends women against the men's views.

-Deception - This topic continues into the next section. Does deception have a time and a place when it may acceptable?

It was in this section that we get an idea of what Buran/Nasir looks like. I got a kick out of Mahmud describing Nasir as "a slight, remarkably good-looking young man..." (p. 88 of my book).

One thing that bothers me is how lightly some of the morals of the characters' religion are regarded. It seems that Uthman and Amin don't exactly engage in wholesome entertainment. Mahmud gets drunk. And other types of immorality are implied in a general sense in Part 1.

I love how Nasir/Buran cleverly reveals her secret to Mahmud. Beautifully poetic.

Finally, finish the book this week and we'll open the discussion on Friday, November 27th. Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Seven Daughters and Seven Sons - Part 1 Discussion

As I read this section, it reminded me that my roommate friend dreamed of making this book into a movie. Even though the book starts out kind of slow, it's beginning to pick up and the plot thickens.

This section has some lines in it that impress me as being quite wise. One of them is in the first paragraph of Buran's account: "What we imagine to be a blessing can actually be a curse, and what we suppose to be a curse may blossom into a blessing." Have you had any experiences where this has been the case?

I really admire Buran's parents. Her father seems like a really sweet guy, especially in his graciousness of having to put up with his snotty brother practically every day. I imagine her mother to be like Golda, the matriarch in Fiddler on the Roof. What do you think of the mother's saying, "Each of us has a place, and if we fall out of it, the world will turn upside down" (p. 33 of my book). Does she make a good point, or is she being a little close-minded? Will Buran prove her wrong? Exactly what is our "place?"

One of my favorite secondary characters is Gindar the Chief. He's just cool.

For this next week, read Part 2 and we'll open the discussion for it on November 20th.

Watership Down Chapters 24-29 discussion

Hello everyone! It is time, once again, for our discussion.

We had quite a bit going on in this particular section, but the upshot is that the warren needs does, neighboring warren Efrafa has them, and they will not be easily obtained. Efrafa is another example of clashing rabbit culture, as seen in its heavily militaristic attitude. The beginning of the book hinted at this, when the Sandleford warren's owsla was described as "rather military in character (though...not so military as some)." I wondered how likely a warren like Efrafa was to exist in real life; to me it seemed a bit beyond what rabbits could be cognitively capable of doing. The Marks in particular seemed to me to be a bit too methodical for a rabbit to come up with, whereas places like Cowslip's warren seemed a bit more realistic to me. However, it would not surprise me if different, real-life warrens were to adapt differently to different circumstances. I suppose it also wouldn't surprise me if rabbit kittens could be taught many different ways of life, and not just rely solely on instinct.

Of course, in real life rabbits probably also don't tell stories and have language, so I suppose a little bit more anthropomorphism isn't necessarily going to hurt.

Another theme played with in the section is the idea of domesticated rabbits. These rabbits are more often than not specifically bred for domesticity, which might mean that in real life they'd be too different to interact with wild species. In the context of the story, I would almost have imagined that the Nuthanger Farm rabbits would speak a similar but less comprehensible dialect of Lapine, if not speak a different language entirely. Still, it is good that we're getting some interaction between the two groups all the same.

For next time: Chapters 30-35 for Friday, October 2nd. This section is a bit longer, so if anyone wants me to extend the time by a day or two, just let me know. Also, the update probably won't come until evening, since I'll be working for most of the day that day, which hopefully will give everyone enough time to gather their thoughts.

'Till next time!

Watership Down Chapters 18-23 Discussion

Blast! It seems I have forgotten that I needed to make a blog post on Thursday! I thought I'd already started the chapter 18-23 discussion and that we were on the next section, that appears not to be the case. I deeply apologize for the delay.

So here we have some interaction between the rabbits and other species around them. I thought it was a bit of an interesting shift on the author's part: the last few chapters had them dealing with other rabbits; now we've moved to other populations. I also liked the lingua franca of the field, that the field mouse and Kehaar both used. It makes sense that there'd be some form of communication between the species, I thought, since species often work together, or compete, or otherwise affect one another. The thing is, though, there isn't a real human equivalent: humans only really interact with other humans (in that other animals don't really have any sort of language). Dunno why I found that interesting, I just did.

Also...did anyone else find Holly's story to be incredibly chilling? The hair stood up on the back of my neck when he first came to the down, and in my opinion, one of the more powerful lines in the book is "It wasn't I who tried to arrest you, Bigwig--that was another rabbit, long, long ago." You never really realize just what sort of torment species go through when their habitat is destroyed until you see it from their point of view (well...a dramatized, somewhat anthropomorphic point of view).

The next hardship we're going to be seeing coming into play is breeding. This has been touched upon in the last chapter, but the warren's in need of does. We'll see how they handle that in the next few chapters.

Next reading: Chapters 24-29 for Sunday, September 27th. See you next time!

Watership Down Chapters 12-17 discussion

Hey all,

Again, sorry about the lateness. It is now discussion time!

So, Cowslip's warren. I thought it was one of the more interesting parts of the book, in my opinion, mostly because there's more than just a hint of culture. Because of the warren's unique circumstances, the rabbits there have created a society based on avoidance and denial. What ultimately makes this interesting is that it's not entirely far removed from real life: animals without a doubt adapt their lifestyles to different environments. Those who cannot adapt must leave, or risk death.

This is also the point of the book where the dynamics of all the Sandleford rabbits are tested. Fiver's complete and total aversion to Cowslip's warren is completely at odds with the rest of the group, who only want security. He and Bigwig in particular seemed to butt heads: Bigwig always strikes me as the kind of character who doesn't put a whole lot of merit on "bad feelings" and premonitions. The rest of the rabbits, too, are simply exhausted by their whole idea and wish to settle down. It reminded me a lot of human group dynamics; I'm sure many of you have experienced much the same sorts of problems as the Sandleford rabbits.

All right, I think that's all I have for now. Next discussion will be Thursday, September 17, for chapters 18-23. Hopefully this is acceptable to everyone.

Till next time,

Ellen

Watership Down Chapters 1-11 Discussion

Hello everyone! Since it is September 8, it is time to go ahead and get our first discussion going. Sorry it's a bit late, but there were real life things I needed to get taken care of.

Anyway, I'll just post my own thoughts, then I'll let everyone else take it away.

I really loved the way setting plays a large part in the story. Richard Adams does a very good job describing a place, and then putting the rabbits within it. You get the impression that these were the types of things that he himself grew up with, and that what he's really describing is his own home.

The level of anthropomorphism is also something I find particularly interesting in this book. He gives the rabbits (as well as other animals) a culture, as well as a language, but at the same time, the rabbits aren't running around in clothing or trying to establish themselves as different or rebellious. Indeed, the rebellion that happens in the story (Hazel, Fiver, et. al running from the Sandleford Warren) is done only out of necessity, and not out of a mere desire for something more. They have human qualities, but very rabbit-like ones as well.

One thing's for certain: it's a somewhat darker book than you'd expect, considering it's about rabbits. It's not the Wind in the Willows--it's more a tale of survival and courage than anything else.

Mmkay, that's all I got for now. Have fun!

Wee Free Men Chapters 13-14 Discussion

We reach the end of Tiffany's story, her showdown with the Queen and her discovery of the true power of the land she holds in her bones through her Granny. We also get an introduction to the most respected witch on the Disc, Granny Weatherwax, and Tiffany reminds Roland who the real boss of the land is. All's well that ends well, and Tiffany understands that she has a duty to the land, and to the borders.

Along with the discussion, we should probably decide what to read next so that people can procure the books. I like the look of both of our current suggestions, and if those who haven't contributed yet think of a title they're interested in sharing, by all means put it on our list and we can take a vote or something.

Wee Free Men Chapters 11-12 Discussion

Tiffany learns how to play the Queen's game at managing dreams, learns about the indestructability of the Nac Mac Feegle, and receives a devastating blow when, despite all her efforts, she finds herself unable to save her brother. My apologies for the tardiness of this post, it's been a busy weekend, but here it is. I'm glad you all are enjoying the wordplay. As a bit of a word player myself, I'm always so fond of reading the work of a master of the game. Let the discussion commence!

Wee Free Men Chapters 9-10 Discussion

Tiffany learns more of Fairyland, what there is to fear and what the Queen does to those who cross her. She also finds the lost son of the Baron, Roland, and resolves to bring him back home again also. Fairyland, while not quite what she expected, is becoming quite the challenge as she works to help her brother and Roland and keep the Queen at bay long enough to get out. Let the discussion commence!

Wee Free Men Chapters 7-8 Discussion

I apologize for being late with this post, but I've had a busy few days and a difficult week. Anyway, this week's chapters give Tiffany and the Feegles the information they need to rescue Wentworth...at a price. Tiffany becomes kelda, does a bit of political maneuvering to keep things running smoothly, learns about her own abilities with First Sight and Second Thoughts, and enters into the maddeningly unreal land of Fairy, impatient for the trees to smarten up and look like the real thing. Thoughts?

Wee Free Men Chapters 5-6 Discussion

Here we encounter some more creatures out to get Tiffany and she learns more than perhaps she wanted to know about the Feegles and their relationship to her grandmother. I love Tiffany's recollections of her granny, and how she sees them differently as she grows and changes her world viewpoint. I suppose all of us do this as we mature, but realizing that even from the age of seven up to eleven someone like Tiffany could look back and realize what she'd done to someone she loved, without even meaning to...

On with the discussion!

Wee Free Men Chapters 3-4

Another Friday night, another two chapters. I know we've gotten off to a slow start, but the story is picking up, and now the title's meaning is a bit more apparent, as we meet the Wee Free Men themselves. Thoughts on them, or on Tiffany's thoughts on fairy tales? Let the discussion begin!

Wee Free Men: Chapters 1-2 Discussion

Ok, it's Friday night, and hopefully everyone has had a chance to read these two chapters. What are our initial thoughts about Tiffany Aching and Miss Tick the witch? Also, how is everyone finding the schedule? Is this easy reading to a point where we'd like to speed up, or slow down, or anything of that nature? Let the discussion commence!

Dreams from My Father - Part 3: Kenya and Epilogue

Let's open the final discussion for Dreams from My Father. I found this final section to be very interesting, and I'm curious to see what others thought of it, too.

Also, if you have any feedback on the way we discussed this first book, please comment about that, too. Was the pace too fast, too slow? Should I have put up more thought questions in the discussion post?

Next book up is The Wee Free Men. Angela will be "hosting" this one. Thanks!!