Fruits Basket volumes 19-23

At first I was surprised that I was going to be discussing FIVE volumes but it actually takes five volumes to tell the end. It needs to take that long because these people are becoming human. We didn't really think of them as monsters but Shigure points out that they really are. How long does it take a monster to become human? Takaya lingers on the details as she unravels the threads of the story. Yet even as the story unfolds we find knots in some of the threads. There are previously unknown connections. Komaki's father died in the same accident as Kyoko, for instance. And who knew that Kyo knew Kyoko, had a pretty close bond with her in fact? We see parallels in Tohru and Kyo's childhood trauma as stupid adults make stupid assumptions about the abilities of children to understand things said about them. All of these things play out in the background of Kyo and Tohru's stumbling courtship.

It's a reasonable but childish thing to promise that your mother will always be the one you care most about. Tohru is seriously conflicted. She knows that she loves Kyo but does that mean she will lose her closeness with her mother? Yet Tohru knows there's no denying her love for Kyo and so she mourns once again the loss of her mother. She takes the courageous step of telling Kyo only to be crushed by his unthinking response. He in turn doesn't think it's fair to subject her to the life he will have to live. Both Momiji and Yuki (one with gentle, important words and the other with his fists) show Kyo the error of his ways.

One of the things that I was most interested in when reading the series was the curse. I was so surprised when Kureno didn't really know how he had broken it, especially when Rin and Tohru were so desperate to find out how to break it. Momiji was surprised to find himself truly alone and lonely. You could argue that he had always been alone since his family had basically abandoned him but he had always had the members of the Zodiac to lean on. Akito realized it and in her cruel way didn't fail to point it out. Hiro could suddenly hug his little sister but thought that Kisa wouldn't like him anymore. Shigure, having realized that all the Zodiac are alive at the same time, seems to best understand what's happening and assumes that this is the last banquet. However, he doesn't mind being cursed. Each person is surprised at the powerful emotions that sweep through them when finally released and most weep, both in sorrow and for joy. Finally we find out why the cat was ostracized. Tohru was shocked to think that the others, these people that she loved, could accept Kyo's banishment. He was the betrayer and the scapegoat. He was the one that knew that eternity was too long.

And finally we see in print what we already knew in our heads, everyone loved Tohru. They want her to be happy and ultimately are delighted to see her united with the cat. The old views are crumbling and are surprising to some. Kyo, for instance, can't believe it when Kisa gives him her hankie. In the final volume all the threads are untangled and we see each member of the Zodiac taking tentative steps into the world. Ironically Akito, the one who would be god, was the most frail of all, relying heavily on the support of Shigure, who is relieved to finally have her to himself. Of course, the most touching was the eternal love of Tohru and Kyo as evidenced by their closeness even in their old age.

This is essentially a many-layered love story and we loved it all.

Fruits Basket volumes 16, 17 & 18

Okay! Time to get back into the discussion of Fruits Basket. For this discussion, we'll focus on volumes 16, 17, and 18. There are several very pivotal revelations in these volumes, so if you have not read these chapters yet and do not want to be spoiled, please do not read any further until you do. These revelations will be addressed because of their significant role in the development of the story.

In volume 16 we learn more about Tohru's parents. We've had hints about Kyoko's past before, but we get the details in these chapters and not everything is pretty. Katsuya proved to be the influence she needed in her life as her relationship with her parents was strained and she was so isolated. I think their story is so sweet and romantic. It soon turns to heartache, though, when Katsuya falls ill and passes away. Kyoko completely falls apart, and I think the depiction of this in many ways is absolutely believable. Even for a person who is solidly on their feet and doesn't have the kind of baggage that Kyoko is burdened with, to lose the love of your life must be devastating. It's also disturbing, though, at the neglect that Tohru suffers during this time, and this plays a role in the person that Tohru is today.

Some questions about these chapters -

*We've seen examples throughout the story of mothers. One of the most important mother figures is Tohru's mother, so it's appropriate that we see her role as a mother to Tohru. Kyoko felt insecure when she learns she's going to become a mother, but I think most mothers feel very inadequate! We all make mistakes, and hopefully we learn from them and do better next time. What mistakes did Kyoko make? What kind of affect do those have on Tohru? What do you think about her role as a mother to Tohru?

Throughout the chapters in these three volumes, the relationship between Yuki and Machi continues to develop. For much of the first half of the series there appeared to be a romantic love triangle between Tohru, Yuki, and Kyo, but that's changed now. How do you feel about Machi? What do you think of her pigsty apartment? How could Yuki ever fall for such an odd girl?

With Yuki out of the picture (not that Yuki and Kyo ever came to blows over winning Tohru's affection, or even mentioned it for that matter), you'd think it was clear sailing for Kyo. Tohru's feelings for him are obvious, and it's obvious that he cares for her. But something is keeping them apart and it really hurts to see it (this is the kind of angst I love, though, btw! ^^). I love all the small tender things that Kyo does for Tohru. So cute.

Okay, now to the revelations. There is so much revealed in these few chapters, but it sets us up perfectly for final handful of volumes. First major revelation: Kureno's curse has broken. Second major revelation: Akito is a woman. This explains so much - Akito's jealousy (especially her treatment of the female juunishi), why Kureno is unable to return Uo's feelings, and why everyone is so extremely messed up. And, we meet the most messed up person of all - Akito's mother, Ren. With just a few exchanges, we get the full picture of their mother-daughter relationship (which would make an interesting compare/contrast to Tohru's and Kyoko's relationship), and we understand why Akito is so possessive of her juunishi. Ren doesn't believe the bonds are real. Akito is set out to prove that they are. Meanwhile, Shigure is insanely jealous of Kureno's position and uses Ren to spite Akito (such sordid drama, ha ha), but we finally understand a little about Shigure's motives in all of this. Which brings in Rin and her fervent desire to break the curse, which leads to her being used by Ren, being locked up by Akito, and Haru goes black. I was so relieved when Kureno got some backbone and stepped in to rescue Rin.

Questions about the reveals and the bonds of the juunishi -

*First, I'm curious about everyone's reactions when they first read these chapters. Were you surprised? Did you have an idea of what was going on? There were allusions to the curse breaking in earlier chapters, were there allusions to Akito's gender as well?

*Knowing more about Akito, has that changed how you feel about her? Her behavior has been awful, but is it inexcusable?

As always, don't confine yourself to the discussion points above, but add your own thoughts as you read these chapters. Finally, let's plan on discussing the next two volumes (19 and 20) next week, resuming our original schedule. Hopefully a little more regular posting will keep us on track as we finish up the series. There's a lot to discuss, so thanks to everyone who's been participating!

Fruits Basket Continuing Discussion

Hey guys, sorry for the delay. Long day yesterday, so I'm only a day late. Anyway, since it seems like everyone has been reading ahead and the discussions are lagging a bit, perhaps as a result, I've decided, if there are no objections, to push the discussion ahead several volumes at once, and if necessary give people a little time to get through all of them beyond the usual week. I was thinking going through volume 15 this time, and you can discuss individual volumes or the whole shebang at your own pace. I'll give a brief summary of what we'll see, with no spoilers, and then we can bring up discussion starting with 9 and 10 and add on as we go. Also, feel free to update the character listing as we go if anyone has any relevant comments for any of the characters, or wishes to add new ones as we meet them.

So, 9 and 10: Yuki is starting to move out of the protection of Tohru and the little family as he accepts his new responsibilities in the student council and starts to meet the student council members. A lot of challenge, but also great opportunities for growth. We also learn more of friendship as Hana contributes her past to the plot, and Uo dreams of the man she met at the convenience store. Meanwhile, Tohru and Kyo are visiting Shishou, who discusses some distressing news with Kyo's real father. On a trip to the summer home, emotions are high for everyone, between happy summer recreation activities, Akito's presence bringing tension to all, and Yuki being able to voice some things that have been on his mind for a very long time. A lot of mixed emotions, and some more family conflict to deal with. How is the treatment of the cat related to the feelings of the rest of the Juunishi so far, and why do you think they would tolerate such behavior?

11 and 12: We're still at the summer home with the Sohmas, and things are still a strange mixture of tension and relaxation as Akito continues to torment the Juunishi and goads Kyo into a distressing revelation. Meanwhile, we get to meet another member of the zodiac, the Horse. Akito reveals his connection to the Juunishi and the relevance of the old folk tale, while Kyo continues to muse on his newly realized feelings. Then it's back to school, and Yuki continues to struggle on with his new challenges in the student council and the mishmash of personalities. Tohru has learned of the eventual fate of Yuki and Kyo, and is determined to do something about it. Since the majority of the action revolves around the Cat, I'd love to discuss his unique situation and how he might relate to the rest of the Juunishi through the folk tale. So he missed the banquet, how does that make him the outcast, and why does he have his grotesque other form? How do Yuki's feelings for Tohru change, and how do the changes affect him in his interactions with others? And what of the looming parent-teacher conferences?

13, 14, and 15: Tension mounts as Tohru continues to investigate the inner workings of the Sohma family, as well as trying to help her friend and learn more about the mysterious Kureno. Parent-teacher conferences are upon the students too, and Yuki needs to deal with his mother and stand up for himself. Tohru gets to meet the precious Momo, Momiji's little sister, and feels the pain of the curse as the most optimistic of the Sohma clan feels it, being separated from the person he loves most. Rin, meanwhile, is trying to learn more about the curse and how to break it, and she's certain Shigure knows something about it. But her illness impedes her search, and she reluctantly meets Tohru, who of course feels nothing but sympathy for this girl who is in so much pain. Yuki continues to puzzle over the eccentricities of the student council members, and to try to deal with his own past fears. Selfishness is a good topic here...so many people acting on their own interests at the expense of others, from Momiji's father isolating his son from the rest of the family to save his wife to Yuki's mother using her son's place in the zodiac to furnish her own comfort at his expense. Many of the truly selfish in this series are the adults, and the children are the victims of those selfish whims. The class play and casting is a lovely bit of comic relief, with the kids being able to be themselves regardless of their roles, with a heavy peek into Yuki's past, and the emotional abuse he suffered due to Akito. And yet, he found a tiny spark of light, and an early connection with Tohru, that kept him from succumbing completely to the darkness. The play proceeds with some script changes, and everyone lives happily ever after, in their own way.

Hope this isn't too much at once, but proceed at your own pace and add anything you wish as you go along. Let me know if anyone is interested in the next posting...we could finish the series or break it into two more sections as people decide.

Fruits Basket, volumes 7 & 8

Since this is my first graphic novel, I’m not exactly sure how to go about this discussion, so I’m just going to go and we’ll see how it ends up. How’s that for an introduction?

First we meet Hiro, the Ram of the zodiac. Twerp on the outside, softie on the inside. He’s got a thing for Kisa, easily get jealous of whom she spends her time with, but deep down wants to be a better person and the man that Kisa deserves. I’m very interested to find out more about him…why he’s so rude, manipulative, and well, just is the way he is…and if/how he’ll change. Plus, what is his relationship with Rin? Oh the suspense!

We also meet Ritchan, Monkey of the zodiac. Quite the character. From his cross-dressing to having a on/off switch. From being super apologetic to wanting so badly to change and to find out why he was born. Am I mistaken in thinking that he and Mitsuru, Shigure’s editor, may have made a connection? As Kate asked concerning Kisa, is Ritchan’s mother the overly protective type, or the rejecting type? How has it affected Ritchan?

We find out more about Arisa Uotani and Kyoko, Tohru’s mother. I personally loved these chapters. Arisa and Hana intrigue me because they are so different, and getting to know Arisa more was very satisfying.

Hatsuharu reveals that he had a girlfriend named Rin, who has recently broken up with him. (I have an embarrassing confession to make. When I first plowed through this volume, the conversation between Hari and Yuki gave me the impression that Akito was Hari’s girlfriend and I was so confused. I wondered, "Is Akito a girl or a boy?!" Good thing I reviewed it, because now I’m on the right track.) Once again, Akito leaves chaos in his wake, injuring innocent significant-others. What is with this guy!?! Any speculations about why he acts the way he does? I have some thoughts I’ll put in the comments area, but I really don’t like him. Not one bit.

We catch a glimpse of how Yuki’s parents treated him when he was younger, and see a slowly strengthening relationship develop between him and Ayame. From the small snippet we got of his mother, what can we suspect about her relationship with Yuki? What similarities is Yuki discovering that he and his brother have in common?

And then there’s the president of the Prince Yuki Fan Club, Motoko, to give us some light-hearted entertainment and adolescent amour. I personally hope this isn’t the last we’ll see of her.

Thankfully these chapters have the satisfying smattering of philosophy and introspection that, for me, deepens the reading and provide balance to the overall story. Feel free to share any thought on these:

-Having the courage to admit our childishness/flaws (from a conversation between Tohru and Hiro).
-The importance of family and acceptance, a sense of true belonging (Uotani’s acceptance of the Hondas’ love).
-Searching for our reason to be born (Ritchan’s conversation with Tohru).

Now it’s on to volumes 9 and 10! Happy reading!

Fruits Basket, volumes 5 & 6

There is a wide range of events in these two volumes - relationships continue to develop and we gain greater insight into existing ones, we meet another member of the zodiac, and we learn more about the curse.

I really enjoy the relationship between Hatori, Shigure, and Ayame. They are known as the Mabudachi Trio, and from my limited understanding of the language, "mabudachi" means "close friend", making their nickname fitting as these three have literally grown up together. The focus of the interactions between this group in this section of the reading is over concern for Hatori as Kana is recently married.

Kisa is the next member of the zodiac that Tohru meets. The Sohma family curse has not been easy for her as she has been teased because of her appearance. There are some interesting thoughts about personal validation in this section of the volume and I'd be interested in expounding on it. Teasing isn't something that is singular to the Sohmas - everyone has experienced it. So, I think it's something we can each identify with on some level. What are your thoughts about Kisa's situation? Also, is Kisa's mother the overly protective type or the rejecting type?

One of the things I love about Fruits Basket is that even in the more "filler" chapters of the story, we can still discover little nuggets of insight about relationships or about characters. In the story with the Prince Yuki Fan Club presidency trying to find Hana's weakness, we learn a lot about Hana in just a few words. It's natural for friendships to be tested and to evolve, and I like that we see that happening here. Hana has felt a little lonely as Tohru has started spending more of her time with the Sohmas, but she demonstrates true friendship in finding happiness in Tohru's happiness.

Another character we are introduced to is Kazuma Sohma, or Shishou, as Kyo addresses him. We learn about why he took Kyo in and is serving as a father figure in Kyo's life.

The first really climactic moment of the series revolves around Kyo's transformation. I'm not really sure where you all want the discussion to go with this part as there is so much that can be talked about. I have a few thoughts to mention here and then I hope you'll add what your thoughts are regarding this section of the story.

The first thought I had is about foreshadowing. How was Kyo's transformation foreshadowed? Did anyone pick up on the beads? I will admit right here that I missed everything, and I never questioned why Kyo wore beads. I watched the anime before I read the manga, and I think the presentation is superior in the manga, but regardless, I missed the boat. And kind of an aside, but what other foreshadowing are you seeing in the story? One of the things I enjoyed so much with reading this manga the first time was speculating about future events, so I'd love to see any speculation for first-time reads of this story.

The other thought I had about Kyo's transformation is the symbolism behind it. What does the true form symbolize? Why does the cat have an alternate form? What kind of effect does this have on the story and on the other members of the zodiac?

Finally, one little thing that I love about this part of the story is that it's the first time Kyo ever addresses Tohru by her name (in any form). It's just like Kyo to bypass any formality and call her by her given name straight out. We've mentioned before how changing the way one addresses someone in Japanese culture signifies a change in the relationship. How was Tohru different from Kyo's mother in reaction to his true form? What changes have occurred in this brief interaction?

After all the heavy angst, there's some light-hearted fun at Ayame's dress shop, and we meet Mine, who I really like. She and Ayame kind of speak a different language all together when they are talking to each other. She certainly can keep up with Ayame's personality!

Fruits Basket Character Guide and Discussion

Tohru Honda
The protagonist of the story is a young girl who
has been forced by the circumstances of her life to take care of herself. She is energetic and resourceful, striving not to be a burden to anyone. She needs to grow up fast yet remains surprisingly innocent and naive. In order to support herself she becomes a housekeeper to a remarkable group of characters and finds herself in the middle of a family curse.


Facts:
Zodiac -- born in the year of the dog but would join the year of the cat fan club if there was one
Nicknames --
Love interest --

Juunishi

Yuki Sohma
Tohru knows Yuki as a popular student at the school she attends. He's very attractive an popular with the other girls at the school but generally holds himself aloof from others, giving himself an air of mystery. He lives with Shigure and does not like going to the main house. We are lead to believe that he suffered there when younger.



Facts:
Zodiac animal -- Rat
Nicknames -- The Prince
Love interest -- None






Kyo Sohma
Seeming to be perpetually angry, Kyo strives to beat up Yuki. Invariably Yuki wins these battles. Kyo is also popular at school, even with his prickly nature. Kyo and Yuki are the same age.




Facts
Zodiac animal -- Cat
Nicknames --Kyon-Kyon
Love interest -- None









Kagura Sohma
Kagura charges in, heedless of the consequences. She's painfully in love with Kyo and forces herself on him. Kagura is actually older than Kyo.


Facts:
Zodiac animal -- Boar
Nicknames --
Love interest -- Kyo Sohma











Momiji Sohma
Half German and half Japanese, Tohru first met Momiji in the building where she works. He is a middle student who looks like an elementary student and he lives in the Sohma compound. Momiji and Hatsuharu are the same age.





Facts:
Zodiac animal -- Rabbit
Nicknames --
Love interest --









Hatsuharu Sohma
In general kind and laid back but when he loses his temper he becomes Black Haru and cannot be reasoned with. He is the same age as Momiji.





Facts:
Zodiac animal -- Ox
Nicknames -- Haru
Love interest -- Yuki







Mabudachi Trio

Shigure Sohma
Shigure is the apparent adult in the house. He is a writer of what we are lead to believe are somewhat questionable novels. He's an enigmatic character who seems to be able to communicate comfortably with Akito when others are nervous about it. Typically wears tradition Japanese kimono.


Facts:
Zodiac animal -- Dog
Nicknames --Shii-Chan
Also called Sensei because of his profession
Love interest-- high school girls







Hatori Sohma
Cigarette smoking doctor to the Sohma family, Hatori is nearly blind in his left eye as a result of a disagreement with Akito. Hatori is the one who erases the memories of those who find out the family secret. He and Shigure have know each other since childhood.


Facts:
Zodiac animal -- Dragon
Nicknames -- Haa-San, Tori-nii
Also called Sensei because of his profession
Love interests -- Engaged to Kana until ordered by Akito to break up




Ayame Sohma
Yuki's older brother, Ayame runs a shop that sells very interesting clothing.


Facts:
Zodiac animal -- Snake
Nicknames -- Aaya
Love interests -- None










Akito Sohma

The head of the Sohma family, Akito is a mysterious figure that is sometimes seen in the background, flashback, or a single panel. The other members of the Zodiac seem to be quite afraid him.

Facts:
Zodiac animal --
Nicknames --

Love interest --

Kisa Sohma
Kisa has just entered middle school and is being mercilessly teased because of the way she looks. Not knowing what else to do she stops talking completely. Tohru is able to explain to Kisa's mother why Kisa didn't tell her about the teasing. In response Kisa follows Tohru around and eventually starts speaking again.


Facts:
Zodiac animal -- Tiger
Nicknames --
Love interests -- None

Other Sohma Characters

Kazuma Sohma
A martial arts instructor who taught Yuki, Kyo, Kagura, Hatsuharu, and others. He is Kyo's father figure.

Facts:
Nicknames -- Shishou
Love interest --

Friends

Arisa Uotani
Arisa enjoys fighting with Kyo whenever they have any sort of friendly competition. He calls her a Yankee thug. She is a very close friend of Tohru's and is always deeply concerned about her well-being.


Facts:
Nicknames -- Uo-Chan
Love interest --

Saki Hanajima
Apparently a psychic, Hana-chan senses the electric vibes from people around her. She's also able to throw out some powerful electric waves herself. Hana-san is very close to Tohru.

Facts:
Nicknames -- Hana-Chan
Love interest --




Mine Kuramae
An employee of Ayame's she is able to sew the dresses he creates in his fantastical shop.


Facts:
Nicknames --
Love interest --

Fruits Basket, vol. 3 & 4

I am just starting volume # 7 and so I am going to pose some question from that vantage point of reading beyond volume 3 & 4. There were lots of characters introduced in 3 & 4, I know we will have time to talk about them and why we like/don’t like them (Yeah. . . I am talking about Hiro) in another thread.

I must admit I really like the first two volumes, this being my first manga, it took some time to adjust to the format but I like it. Overall I love stories that are driven by relationships and I could see some good relationships set up in 1 & 2. However, when I read 3 & 4 it seemed that those relationships didn’t advance. It just seemed more people are throne into the mix. . . . But looking back now from # 6 I can see that this needs to happen to attain some higher levels of angst and complicated relationship dynamics.

I think one relationship that we could talk about is Kyo, Yuki & Tohru. This is like a reverse love-triangle. Kyo and Yuki both love Tohru and want to protect her. Kyo and Yuki are brought together closer because of the relationship they have with Tohru, when typically a literary “love triangle” would drive drive two characters apart, I find that very interesting.

A Few Questions:

What type of conflicts do you think make these relationships so dynamic?

This book is very physical and emotional, what do you think motivates each character to find balance/self-awareness in these realms?

One more question about the art (since this is a graphic novel). . . Do you think the art and images convey emotion (or a depth of the story) that text cannot? Would this story be as good as a prose?

Fruits Basket Vol. 1 & 2

I'm glad everyone is excited to get started. There's so much to discuss.

I think the place to start is by taking a look at the manga format. The illustrations are an integral part of the story. Sometimes it helps to just look at the pictures before starting to read. I used to read everything in a panel and then move on to the next. Now I try to follow a conversation or thought through to a logical stopping place and then go back and pick up whatever I didn't read yet. The hardest part for me is the teeny tiny writing. I don't think it's generally central to the story line but often this is where the comedy resides. Reading manga may be slightly faster than reading a book but I find that you can spend just as long on a manga page as you would if you were reading a page of text. I'm not real sure how manga compares to comic books. Maybe someone more experienced with the comic format can speak to the differences.

Fruits Basket is a mixture of genres but I think the one that stands out most to me is mystery. Maybe others will disagree because it is a very different kind of mystery story. Some of the mysteries are solved very quickly. For instance, you get some hints from the dialogue that it's dangerous for a girl to be living in a Sohma house. When Tohru turns Kyo into a cat you have your answer to that mystery. The answer suddenly turns the mystery into a fantasy but the mystery never goes away. In fact, the fantasy aspect deepens the mystery. There are many layers of mystery within mystery to be pulled apart.

What is this curse? How and when did it get started? Can the curse be broken? How much of a hold does it really have on them? These are just a few of the mysterious plot elements. The characters themselves are also mysterious. Akito, the practically cloistered head of the family, seems to epitomize the mysterious character element. Shigure knows far more than he tells and is rather enigmatic. I think we could really take the story apart, if anyone is interested in doing that. I would love to discuss each character in depth.

On the topic of characters...how about Tohru? She's quite the good little housewife. What does this say about women in Japanese society? We could include Tohru's friends in that discussion. Don't get me wrong. I really, really like Tohru. She's incredibly strong and yet surprisingly innocent. At first glance it seems that she doesn't have as many layers to examine but I'm not so sure.

Finally, is that not the cutest rat you have ever seen?? Reading this a second time I'm seeing so many things that I missed the first time I read it. You really couldn't have seen those things unless you had read it through, knew the situation and the characters and started over again. I'm more impressed with Takaya's work and all the layers she adds to the story.

The next selection that we'll be reading for our book blog is a 23 volume manga (graphic novel) series called Fruits Basket by Natsuki Takaya.

In order to cover the series in a reasonable amount of time, we're proposing reading two volumes (or around 10 chapters) a week, with the discussion for each new reading beginning on Friday evenings.

Ideally, we'd like everyone to take at least one turn in leading the discussion for this series. It doesn't matter if you've read Fruits Basket several times or if the story is completely new to you. So please, in your comments, if you could let us know if you'd be willing to lead a discussion and if there are any chapters/dates that you'd prefer. I'd like to get a rough schedule up so that each of us can plan for when our turn is up (with adjustments made as needed - we're flexible here :) ). Also, if there is a volunteer for leading the first discussion...that would be much appreciated, too.

If you're new to reading graphic novels, please don't let the schedule overwhelm you. The reading is generally quicker than for traditional novels. That said, if anyone does have any concerns at the pace, please make them known in your comment. We want to keep at a pace that keeps up the interest in the story, but we don't want to go so fast that it's hard for everyone to keep up.

Proposed Schedule:

Jul 09, discuss vols 1-2 / chapters 1-12
Jul 16, discuss vols 3-4 / chapters 13-24
Jul 23, discuss vols 5-6 / chapters 25-36
Jul 30, discuss vols 7-8 / chapters 37-48
Aug 06, discuss vols 9-10 / chapters 49-59
Aug 13, discuss vols 11-12 / chapters 60-71
Aug 20, discuss vols 13-14 / chapters 72-83
Aug 27, discuss vols 15-16 / chapters 84-95
Sep 03, discuss vols 17-18 / chapters 96-107
Sep 10, discuss vols 19-20 / chapters 108-119
Sep 17, discuss vols 21-23 / chapters 120-final

I think this is going to be a fun experiment, and if it works, we can try another graphic novel series in the future. I'm also happy to welcome all the new friends who have joined the blog in the past few months. Welcome! It's really great to have more join the group.

So - go ahead and make a quick comment with any thoughts on the schedule, when you'd like to lead the discussion (please), and anything else. We'd like to know who is planning on joining in on this discussion for the next couple of months. Thanks!

*edited 08/15, reading schedule updated

Ender's Shadow: Leader and Victor

First off, guys, I'm really sorry, I had tons of stuff going on with the end of the school year and it seemed like no one was commenting, so I completely spaced getting the posts up, and now I've just been guilty of slacking. So let's just finish off the book, for those who were waiting, and move on.

Leader and Victor chronicle Bean finally learning something about human interaction in the face of becoming responsible for a group and having to put it together, feeling truly guilty and grieved when he is unable to protect Ender from Bonzo's assault in the bathroom, and ultimately winning the battle for Ender when Ender has decided he's finished. Bean becomes a toon leader, faces down his own nemesis, Achilles, and goes along with all the other chosen pupils to Tactical and finally to Command school, meanwhile dabbling in political epistolary as he writes to Peter and Valentine regarding his theories about the situation on Earth. He fights the battles of the Third Invasion, is given the chance to take full command from Ender, refuses it, and realizes what Ender knew that he has never understood, and why he could not destroy the Buggers as Ender could. The end, as Bean comes home to the family he never knew he had, knowing he left Ender behind, seems happy and sweet, but given the political situation he has studied while in space, we know there will be more to come.

Final thoughts on Ender and Bean as two protagonists viewed in parallel? Thoughts on the different take each story took, and the different information we were given throughout each one? Thoughts on how the boys handled the attempted manipulation by the teachers differently, and the differences in how they faced the potentially life-threatening challenges that Graff threw at them? Thoughts on Graff and Sister Carlotta, the two adults most present and most able to manipulate both boys' lives? Any other comments, of course, are welcome, and anyone who's willing can suggest the next book.

Ender's Shadow: Soldier

So I was waiting for folks to catch up and post, and then I completely spaced because it had been a while, and I figure I'll just put up the new discussion and people can post as they're ready or thinking about it. So, we've already seen all this from Ender's point of view, and now we get to see it from the other side, also knowing that Bean was the one who assembled this army to become what it was. Bean starts to feel resentful of Ender, and starts to realize how little he really knows about social skills and interaction, knowing so much about Ender only to realize that Ender knows nothing about him. He starts to become more sensitive to Nikolai's feelings, experiences real fear and nervousness, and gradually gains confidence in himself as a part of a group. Finally, having grown a bit as a soldier and as a friend, he gains what he desires: a leadership role in Ender's army.

Meanwhile, Sister Carlotta has learned a lot about Bean and who he is and where he came from, and the news foretells a grim future.

Since we saw a great deal of this from Ender's point of view, I'd love to hear what you guys think in terms of comparison and contrast, and the very slight changes, if you can find them, between the two writings of the scenes. Also, what are your thoughts on Bean and his true biological family, his relationship to Nikolai, and the future that he has before him?

For next time, next section: Leader.

Ender's Shadow: Scholar

Ok, so we're on week three, and along with Bean's social struggles at Battle School, we're hearing a lot back on earth about Sister Carlotta's search for his parentage. Bean is continuing to be a snoop, he's not playing the mind game, and he's planning to climb through the vents, and he's worrying his teachers, who are desperate enough to call the nun for help. What do you guys think of what Bean finds about the school and what Carlotta finds about Bean? What are your thoughts on the mind game? And what are your thoughts on the fact that Sister Carlotta is so insistent on finding out where Bean came from, and her findings? Once Bean learns of the teachers' mistrust and sets out to be a model student, we find how closely tied he really is to Ender's army and it's success, both as a soldier and as the one who chose his soldiers. Now Bean and Ender's worlds are about to mesh closely for the first time. Has Bean changed yet in his social skills as he strives to emulate Ender? What do you think of Bean's perception of Ender?

For next week, next section: Soldier.

Ender's Shadow: Launchy

Here we are on the second section, and now that Bean is in the same situation Ender once was, so that we can begin to compare and contrast more directly. How does Bean handle being singled out, how does he respond to all the new environments and experiences of the Battle School, and how does he respond to the other children? Most importantly, how does he respond to being compared to Ender, who has already set the stage for brilliance? Personally I find Bean much more engaging than Ender just because he's not quite so malleable and easy to manipulate. Bean stays a step ahead because, naturally, after the way he had to survive on the streets, he finds it difficult to trust anyone, especially adults. In fact, especially when it comes to the desks, he is several steps ahead even of Ender, and he's not afraid of getting in trouble or of being pressed into following the rules to find out what he wants to know. As always, anything anyone wants to mention outside this realm of discussion (I've found some inconsistencies between this and Ender's Game, which is unsurprising, given that there was a ten year gap between them that I like to niggle at) are welcome.

For next week, next section.

Ender's Shadow: Urchin

In the first section of Ender's Shadow, we are introduced to the street life of Rotterdam, the gangs of kids who band together for survival, and most importantly to little Bean, who remarkably has survived, and sees a way to make things better for everyone. We also learn of a very real division between children and adults in this world, the adults who know what's going on, that there are orphans running the streets, fighting for survival, dying, and how few of them, most notably people like the cops, who do so little about it. The prominent figures in Bean's life at the earliest point in the story will continue to affect him as it progresses, so I'd love to hear thoughts on Poke, Achilles, and especially Sister Carlotta. In comparison to Ender, what sort of skills does Bean learn, and how is he affected by events, that you think will contribute to his time in Battle School? And how do you feel thus far about what you've seen of Bean's incredible intellect and memory, how he acted to save his life, and how he views the world thus far? As always, any other thoughts and observations are welcome.

Section 2: Launchy, for next week, and please let me know if the schedule is too demanding for anyone, and we can space out the discussions a bit more.

Ender's Shadow Reading Schedule At Last!

Hey guys, sorry it took me so long to get this post up, I've had a really crazy couple of weeks and am still in the midst of another one. However, with no more ado, here we go.

I figure we can take Ender's Shadow in sections and compare each section with the relative one in Ender's Game, since Ender's Shadow, for those who don't know, is a parallel novel with Bean, one of the boys in Ender's Dragon Army, as the central character. There are six sections to the book, and each one seems to run anywhere between 40 and 70 pages. What I'm proposing is a section a week (or every two weeks, if people prefer) with discussion posts to be made on Friday evenings. So if that works for everyone, we can start on the first section this week, and maybe be close to ready to get initial discussion happening by this Friday, April 2nd, since the first section is one of the shorter ones. Let me know if this works, and if not I'll assume that discussion will go on as scheduled. On to section 1: Urchin.

Ender's Game Final Discussion

We've come to the end of Ender's Game (that is, if you've stuck with me despite the lack of posting discussions, etc), and in this final discussion, anything goes.

One of the things I wanted to discuss was the relationship between Ender and Peter. All throughout the novel, Ender is so afraid of becoming like Peter. And, ironically, Ender is the catalyst for the destruction of an entire race, whereas Peter brings peace to the human race. Do you think Ender becomes what he most fears throughout the novel? Angela brought up the theme of life and death in the last discussion, so we can expand on that here as we discuss the death of the Buggers.

A friend of mine intensely disliked this novel because it involved young children who were controlled, manipulated, and at times abused. I've thought a lot about these things, and it's true that they are disturbing elements in the book. Yet, without them, the book would not be as intense or as captivating as it is. It's because the hope for mankind is found in young children that makes the story so compelling. That the odds are often pitted against them ups the ante even more. But, there are valid points about when is it too far. Is it okay to break a person to save everyone else? What they did to Ender - was that okay? What are your thoughts on the methods used to train Ender, including tricking him into destroying the Buggers? Does the end ever justify the means?

Finally, was what humanity did okay? Was it okay to wipe the Buggers out. Of course, hind sight is 20/20, but did any of you ever question the morality of the decision to strike back when you were reading this novel for the first time? What are your thoughts about the Giant's Drink on the Bugger world and Ender finding the cocoon queen?

If you have any other topics that you wanted to discuss, feel free to add them in the comments section. I've enjoyed reading this book with you and look forward to reading Ender's Shadow next. Angela will be leading that discussion and posting a reading schedule/introduction/something about it in a few days. Thanks, again, for putting up with me. I would never have volunteered to lead the discussion if I had known I would have had such health problems. So, thank you for your patience!

Ender's Game Discussion #4

Hey Everyone!

I am so sorry to be out of action for so many weeks. I've been pretty sick for the past month, but I'm starting to feel better and get back to life.

Because of the length of time since we first started this book, let's go ahead and hold our final discussion for this novel this weekend. I'll put up a final discussion post on Friday and we can wrap up Ender's Game and start up Ender's Shadow.

Thanks for your patience ~

Kate

Ender's Game Discussion #3

Hope you guys don't mind, but since Kate is recovering from surgery (she wanted me to let you all know that it went well and she's alright and beginning the process of recovery)she asked me to get the next post started for discussion. No rush here, since I know there are people who are behind, and this discussion is really heavy.

We got a lot of new ground to cover with Ender's progress in the Battle School this time, and how he responds to leadership and life and death. He remembers his reason for coming to school with a message from Valentine, written at Graff's behalf, the life of the person he loves most back on earth, he trains a group to become unstoppable as a master leader, and he causes death. Then once again he is reminded of life and its beauty, when he goes back home and sees Valentine for the first time in years.

What I'd like to cover most is the contrasts between life and death that we see here, from the death of the Giant in the Giant's Drink game to the reminders of life on Earth, to the death of Bonzo in the bathroom, to Ender's own life or death struggles within the Fairyland realm of the mind game.

Also, on a separate note, let's compare Ender's methods of leadership to the leaders he's been exposed to since arriving at the school, such as Graff, Dap, Alai, Bonzo, and Rose the Nose, what he has learned from them, what he uses from them either consciously or unconsciously, and what the results end up being, particularly with Bean. Another factor here is how the game becomes skewed by the teachers as they strive to push Ender's capabilities, and how that affects him and his army.

As always, anything else you consider it pertinent to bring up is welcome. Kate requested that we cut the final section into two parts, so I'm thinking we should read through chapter 14, Ender's Teacher, and save the last chapter, Speaker for the Dead, for the finale. Discussion will open for this chapter next Saturday.

Ender's Game Discussion #2

The last two sentences of our first reading are: "Ender's isolation was over. The war was just beginning."

We didn't talk very much about Ender's initiation into the battle school, so let's go ahead and open that up to what your impressions were, what you thought about Graff's actions to isolate Ender and how Ender was able to overcome that isolation to start to make friends. This situation of Ender pitted against other peers is not something new - our first example was the situation with Stilson, another was Peter. Initially, it was the monitor that was the seeming cause of Ender's isolation and conflict with the other children around him, but even without the monitor, he's thrown into situations that test his fortitude.

Speaking of the war just beginning, we're also starting to meet the armies that make up the battle school. There is Salamander Army led by Bonzo Madrid and Rat Army led by Rose the Nose. Ender is able to observe the strengths and weaknesses of these armies and their commanders. Meanwhile, Ender's formed his own practice group wherein he not only works on his skills and technique for battle, but also his skills to lead. We see that Ender is able to think outside the accepted way to play the game, and is implementing his own strategies and unique approach to not only improve himself, but also change the game in a very dynamic way.

Ender's also troubled, and while he may be an incredible soldier and leader-in-training, he has some demons he has to face inside of himself. The Giant's Drink is one such example. What do you think about this game, and what do you think the teachers were trying to see from the students who play the game? When Ender kills the giant, he thinks how Peter would be proud of him. During the conversation between Valentine and Graff, we see more contrast between Peter and Ender and Ender's fear that he could ever be like Peter. Why do you think Ender fears so much to be like Peter?

Which brings me to Valentine and Peter. In the chapter "Locke and Demosthenes" we get to know Ender's siblings a little better. What do you think about Peter's goal to rule the world? It seems that he really desires to do good for the world, but how does that reconcile with his tendencies towards cruelty? It was commented in the discussion under the previous post that Valentine and Peter are somewhat one-dimensional, and while after this chapter I still feel that Valentine is a rather weak character, I find Peter fascinating. He has a dichotomy about him that makes me curious about what he really plans to do and how he's going to go about it. What do you think his motivation is? Do you believe he is the monster Valentine seems to think he is?

Finally, we've got the war with the buggers that Ender is at the battle school preparing for, and meanwhile, Peter and Valentine are preparing for a potential conflict on earth. Once again, I find the technology in this book ahead of its time with the use of the nets (which bears such strong resemblance to our internet) and the importance of written expression, which today we find in blogs (and tweets and status updates and whatever have you), and also like Valentine and Peter, we can hide our true identities online.

A lot was covered in these chapters, so if there is anything else that I haven't already pulled out to discuss, feel free to do so in your comments.

For next weekend, read through chapter 13, Valentine. I am having surgery on Friday morning to remove that mass in my chest. My surgeon hopes to accomplish the surgery using a minimally invasive technique, but even if that is successful, it's still major surgery and I don't know what to expect for recovery. Plan on me leading the discussion, but if I am unable to, I will let Angela know and she has agreed already to take over if I need her to. Happy reading!

Ender's Game Discussion #1

In these first few chapters, we're introduced into the world of Ender's Game. The book was published in 1985 (an even earlier rendition of the story was released in 1977), yet over 20 years later, the book does not have a dated feel, which I think science fiction can be prone to at times. It's interesting to see how Orson Scott Card's technology in the novel is so similar to our modern day technology, so maybe one day the book will feel dated, but somehow I don't think it will.

Another similarity to our modern day society is in regard to the social problems. In Ender's world, it appears there is a strict method of population control, which we are introduced to in the very first chapter, "Third." I thought Graff's explanation of Ender's parents' predicament discussed on pages 22-24 in my edition was insightful. His parents want to conform to society, yet they have internal beliefs that simultaneously rebel against complying. We've seen examples today in which strict population control has brought about serious problems. Just this week I was listening to a discussion on NPR about one particular repercussion that China faces as a result (article can be read here) of population control. How would you feel if you lived in such a society that tried to control these very personal kinds of decisions?

In these first few chapters, we're introduced to some important characters that have shaped Ender's life up to this point, particularly Peter and Valentine. We learn that each of these children has been "tested" for suitability in the IF program, but both Peter and Valentine failed for opposing reasons, and that it was hoped that Ender would be the perfect balance between them. What are your initial thoughts about each of these siblings thus far in the novel (I know most, if not everyone here, has read this book before, but try to forget what you know that happens later and focus solely on what we know this far into the story)? What do you think about what Peter says to Ender (on page 15 in my version) when he says, "Ender, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I know how it feels, I'm sorry, I'm your brother, I love you." Who is the real Peter? Does he truly love Ender, or does he hate him, or is it both?

Finally, we're introduced to the Battle School. We'll talk more about the school in our next discussion, but for now, we can talk about our first impressions. I think having a nearly six-year-old myself, I was struck with how young these kids really are, yet how old their minds are in a lot of ways. They've been forced to grow up too soon. Is it because they live in a world that could be destroyed by aliens at any moment, or is it because they are bred to be geniuses? Or is it something else? What do you think?

For our next reading, read through Chapter 9, "Locke and Demosthenes." Discussion will open up next Saturday for these next chapters.

Ender's Game Introduction

The next two books for our book discussions are going to be Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow. We'll be doing a comparison study. In order for Angela and me to best prepare for these discussions, I think it would be helpful if you could note in the comment section below if you've read one or both of these books before.

So, first up in the reading is Ender's Game. I can still remember reading this book for the first time. I found myself so immersed in the book that I had a hard time putting it down. The first in a series of several books by Orson Scott Card, it's certainly one to catch your attention. I know people who love this book and people who do not like it at all. I'll be curious to see the response within our little book group here.

For our first reading, read through Chapter 5, "Games", which is to page 57 in my book. We'll open the discussion the weekend of January 22nd.

Ender's Game

The next book we'll be reading is Ender's Game. I had planned to prepare for this book over Christmas as I'm up next to lead the discussion, but I have some unexpected health problems, and while I'll be up to lead the discussion, it's taking me some time to get my feet under me again. Plan on an opening post and reading assignment to be put up this weekend. Sorry for the delay. -Kate