Wednesday, March 17, 2010

Ender's Game Final Discussion

We've come to the end of Ender's Game (that is, if you've stuck with me despite the lack of posting discussions, etc), and in this final discussion, anything goes.

One of the things I wanted to discuss was the relationship between Ender and Peter. All throughout the novel, Ender is so afraid of becoming like Peter. And, ironically, Ender is the catalyst for the destruction of an entire race, whereas Peter brings peace to the human race. Do you think Ender becomes what he most fears throughout the novel? Angela brought up the theme of life and death in the last discussion, so we can expand on that here as we discuss the death of the Buggers.

A friend of mine intensely disliked this novel because it involved young children who were controlled, manipulated, and at times abused. I've thought a lot about these things, and it's true that they are disturbing elements in the book. Yet, without them, the book would not be as intense or as captivating as it is. It's because the hope for mankind is found in young children that makes the story so compelling. That the odds are often pitted against them ups the ante even more. But, there are valid points about when is it too far. Is it okay to break a person to save everyone else? What they did to Ender - was that okay? What are your thoughts on the methods used to train Ender, including tricking him into destroying the Buggers? Does the end ever justify the means?

Finally, was what humanity did okay? Was it okay to wipe the Buggers out. Of course, hind sight is 20/20, but did any of you ever question the morality of the decision to strike back when you were reading this novel for the first time? What are your thoughts about the Giant's Drink on the Bugger world and Ender finding the cocoon queen?

If you have any other topics that you wanted to discuss, feel free to add them in the comments section. I've enjoyed reading this book with you and look forward to reading Ender's Shadow next. Angela will be leading that discussion and posting a reading schedule/introduction/something about it in a few days. Thanks, again, for putting up with me. I would never have volunteered to lead the discussion if I had known I would have had such health problems. So, thank you for your patience!

8 comments:

Istari the Angel said...

Ender and Peter...I think Valentine put it very well when she said they were two sides of the same coin, with her in the middle. Ender and Peter both have the same capabilities for leadership, strategy and tactics, and basically thinking outside the box, and the major difference is really only that one wants what these skills can bring and the other does not. However, despite Ender's sentiment at the beginning of the book, that he dislikes contests of weak vs strong, stupid vs smart, and so forth, he is very young to have made such a decision, and it may have been shaped mainly by Peter's hostility toward him. Peter, by the same token, could have the type of personality that craves something because he is told he can't have it. With the military closed off to him, and his awareness of why it was so, he sought it even more. Knowing how many pies the IF has their fingers in, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the IF guessed based on the extensive personality and psychological tests these kids are put through how they would behave, and arranged it all so that the world would finally be at peace with the threat of the buggers gone. On a larger scale, the life and death struggle these two boys are on opposite ends of represent the peaceful continuation of life on earth with the death and annihilation of the buggers.

Istari the Angel said...

For the sake of post size, I'll do this in chunks. The manipulation of the children in the book, which some of them see through, like Dink Meeker, and others embrace and use to their advantage. We'll see more of this in Ender's Shadow. The big argument for the way the children were manipulated and treated comes down to the good of the world as a whole vs the good of the individual, which is a debate that often comes up in wartime, and which is on the political agenda lately as far as security. Where do the rights of the individual have to give way to the safety or well being of the group? Who has the right to discern those boundaries? And how, if at all, should the individual be compensated for their loss of rights? Ender was treated very cruelly at times, and put in outright danger, which is by most people's definition a crime against children, and yet produced the desired effect. In religious terms, he's the sacrificial lamb, and the weeping father (Graff) turns away in anguish from the despairing cry of his son in his torment, knowing that the world needs the sacrifice. I think Graff does feel very much for these children, and loves them more than they or most people would understand, but he also makes the choice to put the fate of the world on their shoulders. A sacrifice is needed to wipe the world clean.

Istari the Angel said...

Lastly, the decision to wipe out the buggers...personally, as much as I wish it didn't come to this, I agree with Graff. We are a race that is genetically engineered to survive, and if that means a preemptive strike to eliminate danger, so be it, though to be honest I also think both buggers and humans were too quick to bring war on each other because of a difference in communication. Ender can't have been the only person in the world to be able to understand them, and I wonder if there were a few random people out there who did somehow realize their method of communicating and just never stepped forward to share their realization, knowing the public would scoff at the very least. Despite our choice to eliminate the threat, the fact that the bugger queen saw through it, knew what we would do to her people, and still had the compassion and wisdom to leave a child of hers behind through this link between races is the hope of the future: true peace, not just peace by default after one side can't fight anymore.

Kate said...

I appreciate your comments as always, Angela.

I like your comparison of Ender as a sacrificial lamb. That's a connection I've never made before, although it wouldn't surprise me if it was one that Orson Scott Card may have intended (he's LDS - did you know that? - and has had a tendency to pull elements of religion into his stories).

I also like your thoughts about the conflict between humanity and the buggers. That the queen would place the future of her race in the hands of the one that destroyed it in the first place is truly an offering of peace and that of trust.

Anyone else have any comments? I was afraid of losing the momentum...and that's my fault. I'm so sorry! :|

Oh, and because we keep getting random comments from some person in Asia (guessing that since the language is not English and the text is in characters), I'm going to try to secure the blog so that only those subscribed to it can post comments.

Istari the Angel said...

I actually did know that Orson Scott Card is LDS. I was thinking about it when Graff mentions to Ender about his father and mother quarreling about baptizing the children when they were brought home, not about the act itself, but about baptizing them Catholic, since the mother was Mormon and from Utah. He's also mentioned it in some short stories and interviews I've read and heard.

Also, I was going to ask about those random comments. I think they're Chinese, since they don't look the same as Japanese or Korean, the only Asian writing styles I can recognize easily. But I think it's a good idea to secure the blog.

Ghostlibrarian said...

They assumed that if Ender knew that he was really actually fighting and destroying the bugger world that he would not do it. I disagree. I think Ender knew that's what had to happen. I don't think they needed to trick him into becoming a "murderer." They also didn't need to have him face off against Bonzo. It's not that Ender was hungry for death. It's just that death was what was needed and he knew he was able to do that.

The fact that Ender was profoundly sad after destroying another world is a tribute to his compassion and to humanity. Yes, humanity will fight to survive but it would rather not have to utterly destroy the opponent. Did the buggers have the same sense of compassion? The fact that they were the original aggressors and were deliberately trying to destroy life on earth would suggest that they did not.

Once again the death theme continues even at the end with the idea of a speaker for the dead. I was very surprised at the giant that the buggers had created. It suggests that Ender was communicating with them, or at least they were getting some information about him somehow. It begs the question, why couldn't the communication go both ways? How is it that they had so much trouble understanding humans?

One thing that made me truly angry was the fact that Ender was not allowed to return to earth. Surely he could have been kept safe. Surely he was intelligent enough to make a few decisions for himself. Of course, he could still have chosen to become a colonist but that should have been something that he chose rather than something that was forced upon him. Ender was a hero and he should have been treated like one.

Istari the Angel said...

I'm not excusing the Buggers by any means, Ghost, but just like we found no way to communicate with them, they also had no way of communicating with us as a race...the Queen said it herself, how could they hope to understand creatures who didn't dream each other's dreams? It's like asking two men who speak different languages to speak to each other and understand with no help from stuff like body language or facial expressions...like a telephone call. But once the Buggers realized that these beings were sentient, they weren't coming back.

Also, unfortunately for Ender, as intelligent as he was, he was a child, and that means they didn't give him a say in pretty much anything. In some ways they still didn't know him very well, because they probably assumed that things like the political situation in the world, which he probably knew nothing about, and a wish to see his family, would draw him home no matter what, and that he would become the prey of whoever could get hold of him first.

Kate said...

I think that Ender would have found himself unable to resist Peter. While Ender is a strong person, and became stronger because of everything he went through, I think Peter always held an intangible control over Ender. It frustrated me, too, that Ender couldn't return to earth, that he saved a planet that he can never return to. But, it's also kind of a satisfying conclusion. Besides which, if he had returned, he may never had discovered the Hive Queen and given a chance to redeem the xenocide.

I found it ironic that Peter brought peace to humanity when he did not bring peace within the walls of his own family. I liked that he was able to finally channel those controlling characteristics to something good.

I also found it ironic that Ender, who never wanted to kill, ended up being instrumental in destroying an entire race.