Okay, everyone, with your hand on your heart and a romantically-touched look on your face, take a deep breath and sigh with me, "Awwwhhh." That pretty much describes what I did when I finished Part 2. Were you able to keep from starting Part 3? Confession: even though I've read this book multiple times, I gave in and finished in. I know! I'm a horrid example.
This section touches on a couple topics that I thought were interesting:
-Friendship and what attributes true friends possess (or what attributes fake friends have) - I find it interesting that from the very beginning of Mahmud's account, he basically says that Amin and Uthman are not true friends. What is it about his friendship with Nasir that gives them a strong relationship? How are our friendships? What do you think of Uthman's attempt at being a true friend at the end?
-The relationship between men and women - Of course, we all recoiled at the men's narrow-minded attitudes towards women. I personally believe these attitudes are still pervasive in our society, but much more disguised. Can you think of any ways it's hidden? I love how Nasir defends women against the men's views.
-Deception - This topic continues into the next section. Does deception have a time and a place when it may acceptable?
It was in this section that we get an idea of what Buran/Nasir looks like. I got a kick out of Mahmud describing Nasir as "a slight, remarkably good-looking young man..." (p. 88 of my book).
One thing that bothers me is how lightly some of the morals of the characters' religion are regarded. It seems that Uthman and Amin don't exactly engage in wholesome entertainment. Mahmud gets drunk. And other types of immorality are implied in a general sense in Part 1.
I love how Nasir/Buran cleverly reveals her secret to Mahmud. Beautifully poetic.
Finally, finish the book this week and we'll open the discussion on Friday, November 27th. Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
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7 comments:
I just posted my comment for last weeks discussion and noticed that the new discussion was up. Ruth, you posted some awesome questions with much too much to think about.
On friendship: I can't imagine having a life where the only friends you have are people who you know are not true friends. I can understand Mahmud's frustrations when we are first introduced to him. Mahmud desired a friend who was a friend for friendships sake (not for free handouts or status upgrades). This is exactly what he found when he met Nasir.
On Men and Women: It's sometimes frustrating to read about men being narrow-minded about women. Just think of how much more they could have accomplished if they just could have acknowledge that women can think too! There will always be narrow-mindedness in society though. Whether it is about women or about certain religions or about race. Humans seem to be predisposed to think they know best and have a hard time being able to be open minded about new ideas (that is, all humans but me. I am not narrow-minded about anything).
On Deception: I would like to say that deception has no place at any time. But then I remember that I told my daughter this morning that I was laughing at something I read in an email because I didn't want to explain to her that I was really laughing because of something rude and inappropriate my husband had said.
On Religion: I found it interesting the way the story handled the religion of the characters. It made it seem more real to me. Some of the characters were a bit lax on their religious beliefs (Amin, Uthman and Mahmud with their unwholesome activities and drinking) while others were more stalwart with their beliefs (Nasir/Buran who prayed five times a day and didn't drink). This is how all religions are...there are always people in every religion who are less involved or active in practicing their beliefs than others.
I wanted to read on, but I'm doing better in staying with the schedule. It was hard, though, really hard. I'm excited to read the rest and will probably finish tonight.
Friendship. I think why Mahmud felt such a strong friendship with Nasir was because she didn't demand anything of him. It seems that his other friends, Amin in particular, are takers. In almost every relationship there's going to be times when someone takes more and someone gives more, but what makes a relationship work, I think, is when there is a balance. When someone is a chronic taker, then that is when I feel a relationship disintegrates. It's just too much to demand of someone. Of course there seem to be those friendships that work like that, and Mahmud is one example. I found him remarkably patient with his friends, but then again, I think he also didn't feel like he had many options for friendship. When Nasir came along and demanded nothing like his previous friendships had, of either his status or of his means, I'm sure it was refreshing and also made him feel like the friendship was genuine.
I certainly did recoil at the attitude depicted toward women. I expected it and was prepared for it and I understand that it must stem from cultural beliefs (although I caught at the beginning of the novel that it was not always that way, and it seems that views have fluctuated over the generations as I read just a few years ago a book about memoirs from Tehran where women had had much more equality many years ago than they do now), but I really find it hard to accept. Being a woman myself, I know I am just as capable, if not more so at times, as a man. I have encountered discrimination in the work place, and it was extremely frustrating. I worked as a civil engineer for a few years out of school. Engineering in general is still a pretty male dominated field, although women are making great strides in evening out the ratio discrepancies. And, I found a lot of people who did not discriminate (it helped that my boss was a woman, but her boss was excellent, too). However, at times, I ran into kind of the old boys' mentality, and that was so irritating. They had no clue how discriminatory their remarks were (or maybe they did, but I profess I found them rather ignorant :P ). At times, I would look at my contemporaries with an expression of: "Did he just say that? Did he really just say that?" And they would give me a look back like, "Yup, he did. Wow." It was always great to butt heads with burly contractors who'd been in the business for years and know my stuff. And, I found that by and large, I got the respect I deserved by hard work and proving that my mind was just as capable as a man's. So, I read this section with interest and also annoyance at times with the views that the men, even Mahmud, held about women. I found Nasir's argument with Mahmud, when she brought up his mother, a good one. Maybe it shed a little light for him and prepared him to accept her as an equal when he realized what she was.
I will have to think about deception and write more later. I'll be interested in what others have to say. Time is short, though, so I need to stop for now, but I'm looking forward to the discussion for this section.
I forced myself to stop after this section, and I'm proud to say that I kept away from it until now, but I thoroughly enjoyed the switch in character perspective, and while Buran/Nasir's head wasn't a bad one to be in (much more enjoyable than say, Bella Swan, but don't get me started) I absolutely loved Mahmud, he's the sort of guy I've always been interested in, even just as a friend, because I enjoy good conversation.
I loved his take on friendship, and how aware he was of why these guys hung out with him. I've always been slightly wary of friendship myself, because for too long in high school and before, I was best friends with a girl who basically took out her emotional burdens and frustrations on me and continually strung me along. I always had to be available to listen or to help, but she never seemed to be there when I needed it. She acted mad at me when something happened in her life, and I found myself saying sorry a lot for things I hadn't done just to keep the peace. We were friends out of convenience, and eventually I stopped calling her or inviting her along when we went out in groups. Doesn't help that she treated another very dear friend badly, but that's another story. Suffice to say, I know well how Mahmud feels, and why he values Nasir so much as a friend. I feel grateful for the friends I have who are true, because I still have plenty that I know are willing to be friends because I'm always willing to be there when they need something, though the reverse is not always true.
Deception. Hmm. This has always been sticky ground for me, because while I can be a good liar when I need to, I don't like to do it if I don't have to for a really good reason, and too often I get stuck with the choice of being honest and hurting someone's feelings, or lying and feeling bad myself about the lie. In Buran's case the deception is a real need, because she would have a really bad time of it if she was discovered, but I don't like that Mahmud's friends keep insisting on all these stupid tests rather than encouraging him to just be honest about his feelings and ask her. Some people see it as me being blunt, but I would rather be direct and suffer embarrassing myself than try to be sneaky and have everyone think I'm not trustworthy.
I find the attitude toward women appalling by Mahmud's friends, and quite frankly I'm fully ready for Buran and Mahmud to point and laugh at both of them when the truth is finally revealed. I've always prided myself on being able to do anything I need to, regardless of being a girl. I know how to use tools and build stuff, I'm strong enough to move furniture, I know how to fix stuff, I can handle my car, and I don't envy a guy who picks a fight with me. I can even tie a tie. I like to talk about sports and fire guns, and I'm good at it.
I'm not so bothered about the laxity of morals in these young men. They're people, like anyone, and they have their vices. I know when I was in my teens I was very lax about my religious duties, and it wasn't until my early twenties that I shaped up a bit and laid off a lot of the behavior I'd gotten into. I would mostly say that while it's not excusable, it's expected, and they have to learn and decide for themselves what code to follow and to what degree.
Buran can run circles around all these guys, even Mahmud to a degree, and I fully expect her to be a step ahead of them all the way through this.
Looking forward to reading the end! Have a great Thanksgiving!
Phew! Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to your comments. It's been a busy week.
You all bring up some very good points.
Friendship: A very touchy subject in some senses. And I love all the comments you all have made. I seem to remember hearing somewhere that there are three kinds of people: needy people, giving people, and the in-betweeners. Needy people and giving people do well with each other, there's a good give-take relationship, while the in-betweeners do better with themselves. Personally, I feel like I'm at a stage in life where, outside of my family (taking care of my kids, husband, etc.), I'm need more help than I am able to give. I don't like it, and I have one friend in particular (our kids' adopted grandma) that I feel I can depend on, but try to be very aware of not depending on her too much. My biggest hope is that somewhere down the line, I can pass the giving to someone who is in need of it. So, I think we can go through phases in our lives of being needy, being givers, and being in-between, or equally balanced, like Buran/Nasir and Mahmud.
I totally agree with Havilah. Why can't men and women just learn to get along and appreciate each other! Kate, I loved hearing your experiences with bias, and how you held your own in butting heads with rude, sexist coworkers. Angela, will you teach me some of your mad skills? Being a girl is something that has taken me quite a long time to accept and be comfortable with. I'm the sort of person that would much rather be outside working than inside cooking and cleaning. And I very much rebelled against the expectation during some of my teen years. I avoided helping my mom in the kitchen. My sister and I used to play around with the idea that we'd share a duplex and she'd do all the house-work and I'd do all the yardwork. I can get really worked up when people expect women to "have a place" and stay there. I would not have done well in past eras of major oppression, or oppressive cultures. Exactly what triggers societies to start oppressing women that were previously respected, like Kate mentioned about Tehran? One other thing along these lines: I can't stand the way our supposedly forward-thinking society still oppresses women by making them sex symbols, glamorizing their "weaknesses", portraying them as very frequent victims of violence, and simply portraying men as stronger and women weaker in just about every way. Even when women are stronger, or media has a strong woman character, it seems as though there is always something to compromise her strength. I could go on and on. But I've found that I can't focus on that or I'll be so bitter and unhappy (been there, done that).
I'm wishy-washy on deception. I've been taught all my life that we should have integrity, and be honest. Putting into practice can be more challenging. Anyway. Sometimes in college I would be on campus late and instead of calling a guy friend to walk home with me, I preferred to try to appear as a guy to be safer. I didn't dress very feminine back then anyway(usually wore sneakers, men's jeans (more comfortable)) and my coat was gender neutral. I'd pull my long hair in a stocking cap and even do my best to walk like a guy. I think I may have even tried to pull a stern look on my face. Of course this only worked in the winter time. Deceptive? You bet. Necessary? I thought so. Funny? Maybe that too.
You all are so right. The laxity in morals is unfortunately an accurate reflection of reality. But it still disappoints me. Not that I should talk when I consider how much work I have to do on being a better person. Havilah, you're hilarious as you point out your inconsistencies. They made me laugh.
Honestly, Ruth, I'm glad to hear there's someone else who wasn't always comfortable in society being a girl. Not physically, but societally (is that a word? it should be) I always wanted to be a boy, because it seemed like they got the better end of the deal, and I fit better into that scene. I hate cooking, though I can do it, and while I like a clean house, I abhor housecleaning and try to avoid it until I absolutely have to do. I also hate womens' clothing, by and large, because it seems like a matter of style rather than comfort or practicality, and that doesn't sit well with me. I mentioned this to one of my friends, and he said that when I shop I think like a guy. Aside from bookstores, where I can wander and browse all day, I shop with the idea of going in, getting what I need, and leaving. I like clothes with comfortable fit and practical pockets (I agree with you about guys' pants, by the way, though I have wide enough hips that they're not as comfortable anymore) because carrying a purse is a nuisance, and I never thought myself enough of a coward to call someone to walk me home on campus. Not that I tried to appear as a guy, mostly because my height would be a dead giveaway, I'm so short, but I always walked confidently, and with a bit of a swagger, and I'm sure I gave the impression that anyone who messed with me was in trouble. I think I'm this way partly because I grew up playing with a boy, my older cousin, and wanted to be just like him, and also partly because my dad doesn't have any sons, so when I was younger, he'd take me along instead, to places like the mountains to shoot, or camping, hunting, fishing, racing. I took the same interests, and he was willing to teach me. Even now I prefer the company of guys, because there's less drama and they're more direct. Girls often tend to be sneaky or subtle about being mean or cruel, but with a guy, you state your feelings, maybe fight about it, and then it's done.
As for the ideas you presented about giving and needing, I think it makes a lot of sense, but the happiest people are the ones who have someone who needs them, and also need someone themselves. I know my needs and the people who help me to meet them, and at the same time, I love to be able to give as much as I'm able to the people who I can see need me. If you need to much, and you have any sense of pride or shame, it eats at you eventually, that you can't do it for yourself (or at least, it would me) and if you give too much and never seem to need, eventually you have to start feeling drained. When it's so one-sided like that, it eventually becomes uncomfortable for both sides.
I agree with the idea that you go through phases in your life where you are more of a giver or more of a taker. I know that in my situation with three little children, I am more of a taker with a good friend I've made in my neighborhood. While I try to reciprocate with babysitting, simply put, she watches my kids more than I watch hers and she does more than I do in return. I get frustrated with her some times because I'll come to pick up my kids after a doctor appointment or after volunteering in Daniel's class and she'll have made lunch for all of us. I tell her not to do these extra things, but she insists that she does them because she likes to, and I've realized that she really does and I'm not being a bad friend by constantly accepting. So, in our situation, I am more of the taker and she is more of the giver. However, I think that I am also a giver. She has told me a few times that she hasn't had a good friend since she moved here to my town about three or four years ago, and that she's so glad she has a friend in me. So, I'm giving her a friendship that she's been looking for, and that makes me feel good. I guess there are different levels of giving and taking. What I meant in my earlier comment about givers and takers is when one is chronically a taker and wearing the giver out. I know there are people who give and give and they are naturally that way. It's the people who are taken advantage of that bothers me. I know I'm guilty of being a taker myself at times, but I try to catch myself, like with my friend and make sure that all is good. And, I can't say that I don't mind the extra help when I'm out and about running errands when people see me with three little kids and open doors for me and help me with my groceries. I've always been such an independent person, but I've realized my limits and I appreciate the help. It's like someone said: to receive is to give another an opportunity to give. It's just when the kindness is taken advantage of that irks me in friendships. :D
Ooh...you brought back all the scary stories about campus at night, Ruth! I remember dashing - literally running my heart out - down that long ramp at night. I felt okay once I got to the bottom of the hill because with the street traffic, I felt I could get attention if need be, but that endlessly long ramp up campus scared me at night. The call phones were nice to have, but I thought we needed more. :D So, I completely identify with you about that kind of deception and I wish I'd been clever enough to think of such myself. Instead I would call roommates and tell them I was leaving for home and when to expect me.
I loved your rant, Angela. I've noticed you're all about practical and comfortable and I think that's awesome. I've worn boys' jeans in the past because they can be more comfortable, but more than that, their sizing makes a heck of a lot more sense than womens sizing. Hello - I can get a waist and inseam size with mens clothing but with womens I have to guess whether in this style and this brand I am a 6, an 8, a 10, or even a 12. Such a pain. Why that is, I don't understand, but it's a pain.
I hear you about the jeans, Kate. I can wear an 8 in some styles but in others I have to wear a 12, and it drives me crazy, having to guess. Girls come in as many different shapes as guys, if not more, and we should have that kind of variety in clothing sizes just like them.
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